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Taipei Times 專訪『被出賣的台灣』製片刁毓能
新聞報導 -
作者 Taipei Times   
2010-08-05

INTERVIEW: Producer brings Taiwan’s history to the big screen (Taipei Times 2010/08/02)
專訪:製片人把台灣歷史推上大螢幕

翻譯:Peter & Nathan
P.S. 翻譯僅為試翻,歡迎各界指正或提供更佳之翻譯。 


Taiwanese-American Will Tiao, producer and actor in the political thriller ‘Formosa Betrayed,’ sat down with ‘Taipei Times’ staff reporter J. Michael Cole last week to talk about the political and philosophical underpinnings of the film and the threat from China

身兼驚悚政治電影「被出賣的台灣」製片與演員的台美人刁毓能(Will Tiao),上週接受Taipei Times記者J. Michael Cole的專訪,談到影片內容所涉及的政治與哲學基礎,以及台灣所受到來自中國的威脅。


J. Michel Cole, STAFF REPORTER, Monday, Aug 02, 2010, Page 3

Taipei Times: Given your parents’ experience of being blacklisted by the Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) during the White Terror era, did they ever worry about your safety after you embarked on this project?

Taipei Times:你父母在白色恐怖時代,曾有過被國民黨列為黑名單的經驗,在你籌拍本片後,他們會擔心你的安全嗎?


Will Tiao (刁毓能): Ever since I left Washington, my career in politics, to pursue a career in Hollywood, I told them I wanted to do something about this issue, with regards to this idea of there being a series of murders of Taiwanese intellectuals, some of them in the US … that there were student spies on almost every campus. I had always wanted to tell the story for an American audience. I knew it was part of my parents’ story. I made it clear from day one that this was something I wanted to do. My father especially said that if you’re going to do something for Taiwan, then I’ll support you.

刁毓能:
自從我離開華聖頓的政壇事業,到好萊塢尋求發展,我告訴他們,我想拍些議題是關於一連串謀殺台籍知識菁英的事件,他們有些是在美國境內…幾乎每個校園裡都有職業學生。我一直想告訴美國觀眾這個故事,我知道裡面有部份是我父母的故事,我從拍片第一天開始就表明是我想要做的事,我父親特別對我說:如果你要為台灣做一點事,那麼我會支持你。

Of course we knew that doing this movie was something that would be provoking and controversial. But we were always careful about not pointing fingers. Other than Chiang Kai-shek (蔣介石), no other historical figure is mentioned. Never in the film did we use the terms Kuomintang or waishengren (外省人); we don’t call out any specific person … Of course we were aware that this could cause — and obviously caused — a lot of consternation among certain people, but we were always careful not to keep this in the typical blue-green divide that deals with Taiwan.

當然我們知道,拍這部片將有些許刺激性與爭議性,但是我們總是小心翼翼沒有針對性,除了蔣介石,沒有任何歷史人物被提及,在這部片中,我們不曾使用「國民黨」或「外省人」的用詞,我們沒有講到任何一個明確的人…我們當然知道這會引起──明顯地引起──某一群人極大的驚恐,但我們總是謹慎不落入典型的台灣藍綠分野。

TT: How did that consternation you refer to express itself?

Taipei Times:你剛剛談到的驚恐是什麼?


Tiao: If you look at the Internet, there’s attacks all over the place. People are arguing and debating and that’s part of why we did this, to make people focus on this. One time at Harvard when I was giving a speech there, a woman came in and asked: ‘What events are you talking about, is this real or is this fake, because this isn’t the history that I was taught.’ And I said, every character in this film is inspired on at least two actual, and every major event in this movie is a composite of an actual event … People get to see how impassioned the debate is. I’m happy to see that people are engaged.

刁毓能:你如果看網路,就會發現到處都有攻詰,人們正在爭吵、辯論,這也是我們籌拍此片的一部份原因,要讓大家聚焦於此,有一次在哈佛,我正在演講,有個女人走進來問我,「你在講什麼事件?那是真的還是杜撰?因為這不是我被教過的歷史」。我說,這部片中的每個角色,至少受到兩個真實人物的啟發,電影中每一個主要事件都是由一個真實事件所構成…大家看得到這種辯論是有多刺激,我很高興看到人們很熱衷投入。

TT: The movie The Killing Fields [about genocide in Cambodia] came out just a few years after the actual events. Have you encountered criticism that your movie, on the other hand, is about ‘ancient’ history, as it depicts events that took place 30 or 40 years ago?

Taipei Times:柬埔寨種族屠殺的電影「殺戮戰場」,拍攝時間只在真實事件發生後沒幾年,你的電影會不會被批評,從另一方面來講,就是關於「陳舊」的歷史,因為它所描述的事件是發生在三、四十年前?

Tiao: Absolutely. But we still see ramifications of that period today. The idea that the 1970s and 1980s is ancient history strikes me as very odd. Most people who were involved in those events are still alive today — at least those who survived. And some of those people are now in power. To not be reminded of what it was like, and what decisions were made at that time on all sides, is not only ill-considered, it’s blasphemous. There’s a reason why so many movies have been made about the Holocaust. We’re the first Hollywood movie about this subject [in Taiwan].

刁毓能:當然會,但是今日我們仍可見到那時所造成的後果,70 、80年代概念的古老歷史對我有很奇特的衝擊,大部份跟那些事件有相關的人今天仍在世──至少他們活下來了,而且有些人是當今的掌權者。若不能清楚提示當時的情況,或是當時各方面的決策,不僅是考慮不周詳,更是種褻瀆。這就是為什麼會有許多關於大屠殺的電影被拍攝出來的原因,我們拍的正是好萊塢第一部以「台灣」為主題的電影。

This is a reminder of history that is still fresh on the page and is something that needs to be understood, so that Generation Y know what their parents had to go through to get where they are today, and not forget.

這是仍是一頁鮮活歷史的提醒,也是必須被了解的事,所以Y世代的年輕人知道他們父母經歷過什麼才能走到今日,是不可遺忘的。

Taiwan is a very unique place, it’s a place where democracy can easily slide backwards because of the specter of China. A lot of people focus on Taiwan’s economic miracle, but few focus on the democratic miracle, and to me that’s something that needed to be told.

台灣是個特殊的地方,這地方的民主很容易因為中國的恫嚇而輕易倒退,許多人著眼於台灣的經濟奇蹟,卻少有人著眼於她的民主奇蹟,對我而言,這就是需要去宣傳的事。

TT: There seems to be very little involvement in politics by the Y generation, or the Strawberry Generation, in Taiwan. How do you explain that?

Taipei Times:在台灣Y 世代,或者說草莓世代的年輕人幾乎對政治毫無興趣,你如何解讀這個現象?


Tiao: It’s a very Taiwanese thing not to talk about the past. There are certain things that should not be mentioned — it’s cultural. It’s not the same thing as American culture, where they just forget [laughter]. There was a time, not a long time ago, when it was illegal and dangerous to talk about those things, and that has carried over.

刁毓能:不談論過去的歷史,是非常台灣的風格,有些特定的事情不能被提起--這是種文化性,不同於美國文化,美國人只會忘記歷史(笑聲)。不久前的過去,曾經有一段時間,談論這些事情,還是可能觸法、有危險的,這個現象還繼續存在。

TT: What are your views on President Ma Ying-jeou’s (馬英九) China policy?

Taipei Times:你如何看待馬英九總統的中國政策?


Tiao: In many ways it goes to the heart of what the movie defines. For many years, the predominant paradigm that most people analyzed China-Taiwan relations by was Communist versus Nationalist. In our movie, we try to shift that paradigm so that people understand that the main conflict … is an identity issue, one of Chinese versus Taiwanese. There’s a lot of argument about what is Taiwanese identity … The Taiwanese consciousness was really created for the first time on 228 [the Feb. 27, 1947 massacre]. Strong identities are often created through oppression.

刁毓能:這在許多面向正直達這部電影所闡述的核心,這麼多年來,大多數人分析出中國──台灣的關係的主要範例就是指共產主義者對抗國家主義者。在我們的電影中,我們試圖移轉這種範例,讓大家知道最大的衝突...是認同問題,中國人對上台灣人其中的一點,關於什麼是台灣認同有很多爭論…台灣意識第一次真正產生的時間是在228 (1947年2月28日的大屠殺),強烈的認同常常產生於壓迫。

For the Chinese, their idea of a national identity stems from the sense of oppression, often from the West. And the concept that China was once great and that the West took it away. Now it’s China’s rightful place to be back where it is and that includes Tibet and Taiwan and anyone who wants to take away Taiwan from the motherland, that’s still part of the Western oppression. Because China is now communist in name only, it’s replaced its ideology with nationalism.

對中國人而言,國家認同源於壓迫,通常是指西方的壓迫,這種觀念認為中國曾經偉大過,但是被西方剝奪了,現在是中國回到原有地位的正當局面了,包括西藏與台灣,任何想讓台灣脫離祖國的人,都仍算是西方的壓迫,因為中國只剩共產主義的空名,它已經被國家主義的概念所取代。

On the flip side, Taiwan’s identity is fairly new, only born of 228 and the White Terror era. It’s not been long enough that Taiwanese feel a strong sense of identity. So Taiwan finds itself in a strange situation, and if you don’t start deciding your own future right now, someone’s going to decide for you.

另一方面,台灣認同是相當新穎的,剛從228事件與白色恐怖時代產生,不足以久到讓台灣人有強烈的認同感。所以台灣會發現自己處在奇怪的情況中,然而如果你現在不開始決定自己的未來,別人就會幫你做決定。

The largest trade area outside the EU is NAFTA. The largest trading relationship in the world is between the US and Canada. You can have free trade, but the US doesn’t have 1,000 missiles pointed at Canada, saying, ‘Now with NAFTA, you might as well be the 51st state.’

NAFTA(北美自由貿易協定)是除了歐盟(EU)以外最大的貿易區域,美國與加拿大是世界上最大的貿易伙伴關係,你可以自由交易,但是美國並不會以1000顆飛彈對準加拿大,還對加拿大說:「既然加入了NAFTA,再來就當我的第51州吧!」

Even though many people say Canada has a similar culture, the same language — you hear all the same arguments about Taiwan and China. But there’s an obvious difference: The US and Canada are both democracies, they both recognize each other. China does not see Taiwan as an equal.

即使許多人會說,加拿大與美國有類似的文化、相同的語言──關於台灣跟中國你也可以聽到完全一樣的爭論,但是有一點明顯的不同:美國與加拿大都是民主國家,他們承認彼此國家的地位,而中國卻不對等看待台灣。

TT: What about the Ma administration’s ability to protect Taiwan?

Taipei Times:馬政府對台灣的保衛能力,你有什麼看法?


Tiao: I pray that Taiwanese will wake up and make sure that this democracy they fought so hard for doesn’t disappear. The future isn’t necessarily bright if you turn into Hong Kong, if you are co-opted.

刁毓能:我祈禱台灣人能覺醒,並確保他們辛苦爭取來的民主不會消失,台灣如果被中國拉攏而香港化,將來未必樂觀。

That said, I think whether you’re pan-blue or pan-green, Taiwanese are proud of the democracy and freedom here. But freedom is not free and has a cost and that cost is that you have to be involved. That’s why we want young people especially to watch the movie.

這樣來說,我想無論你是泛藍或是泛綠,台灣人都為他們的民主自由感到驕傲,但是自由並非免費,而且需要付出代價,代價就是你必須投入參與,那就是為什麼我們特別希望年輕人來看這部電影。

TT: Has anyone from the pan-blue camp been invited to screen your movie in Taiwan?

Taipei Times:在台灣的泛藍陣營,有誰被邀請來看您的電影嗎?


Tiao: Today we sent an invitation to President Ma and are actively trying to invite pan-blue supporters. A lot of people don’t realize I have KMT investors. I have Chinese investors. For all those people who argue this is a pan-green movie, they have no idea. And to those investors, I made it very clear what this movie was from day one. So the idea that because you’re KMT or waishengren you can’t see this movie isn’t true. This is about Taiwan. Whether you’re green or blue, you need to face up to this stuff.

刁毓能:今天我們已寄發邀請函給馬總統,也積極試著邀請泛藍的支持者,許多人不知道我有國民黨的投資人,我有中國的投資人,吵著說這部是泛綠電影的人並不了解情況,對於這些投資人,打從一開拍我就清楚表明了這部電影的性質,所以說你是國民黨或是外省人這樣就不能看這部電影的想法是不對的,這是有關台灣的,不管你是綠或藍,都必須去面對這些事。

TT: Do you fear that Formosa Betrayed might have hurt your career in terms of the Chinese market?

Taipei Times:你會擔心「被出賣的台灣」這部電影,可能損及你事業在中國的市場嗎?


Tiao: [laughs] Well, let me just say, I’m an American actor. If there’s one market that Hollywood has yet to crack, it’s China. That’s because nobody buys any movies in China, they all bootleg them. It’s not like there’s any Chinese money coming in.

刁毓能:
(笑) 喔!我這樣說好了,我是一位美國演員,若要說好萊塢還沒打進那個市場,那就是中國,因為在中國沒人買電影,他們只是盜版,別指望能賺中國錢。

TT: What about the possibility of Chinese buying US film studios, like the Japanese did in the 1990s?

Taipei Times:中國有沒有可能,像日本在1990年代一樣,買下美國的電影製片廠?


Tiao: Possibly, but it’s going to be an interesting major clash of cultures. At least Japan by that point was democratic.

有可能,但那將會引起一個很有意思的文化大衝擊,至少日本在那時還是個民主國家。

TT: If it did, couldn’t it dictate content, or kill projects altogether?

Taipei Times:如果成真,中國會不會掌控電影內容,或是全部封殺?


Tiao: If you try to tell a Hollywood filmmaker not to do something, he’ll do it. It would be so anti-Hollywood to shy away. For someone to tell them what to do? No. People watch Hollywood movies because of their rebellious spirit.

刁毓能:假如你要告訴一位好萊塢的製片什麼不可以做,他反而會去做,迴避是違反好萊塢風格的,還需要由誰來告訴他們該怎麼做嗎?當然不!人們看好萊塢電影就是因為他們的反叛精神。

The movie will open in theaters in Taiwan on Friday.
電影「被出賣的台灣」本週五(8/6)即將上映!

延伸閱讀:
2010-08-03-頭家來開講-被出賣的台灣-專訪刁毓能
08/06 簡余晏、李慶鋒協辦《被出賣的台灣》電影試映
08/13 台教會贊助【被出賣的台灣】電影欣賞
被出賣的台灣 | Facebook


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